Date sent: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 07:43:41 -0700 (PDT)

The parts Roger has written are in italics. The parts Toby has written are in normal text.

01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36

Toby: > What have you done (no insult intended, neither have i done much) to avert cruelty or injustice?

Roger: Increase the world's prosperity and education. My experience is that people are cruel and unjust when they don't have the resources and education to be something else. This is not an absolute -- there will be rich and educated people who do cruel and unjust things, but they will be much fewer per capita than the poor and uneducated cruel and unjust. Community stress is also a source of cruelty and unjustness (see ruthless leaders).

explain who among the poor has been more cruel than Stalin, Hitler, and some of our oriental "liberators" in China and Camobia. These men are not exceptions they were aided willingly by other educated and wealthy and men.

Know it, or not. I think you've been helping the world a lot.

You flatter me, I have done much that is NOT helpful and much that is NOT unjust.

Q? is man basically good or evil in conflict or tabula rasa?


> Jesus was too passive,


> Jesus should have....? live by the sword?

It comes back to how much he knew -- how much he could see through the veil. If he can see what's coming, he did just fine. If he can't see what's coming, then start with his security precautions at the Last Supper being inadequate, he should have fixed those and not gotten caught. But if he can see through the veil, then is his, "God why have you foresaken me?" statement just a human-pain-originating statment of exasperation, or is it a meaningful question because he has lost his ability to see through the veil, and he doesn't know what's coming next? Personally, I would be happy with the answer that it's just exasperation.

He knows what's coming, but that doesn't lessen the current pain. He knew what was coming and he knew it had to happen is the explanation, he could have stopped the process at any time, didn't need help.

As for a movie story, yes, I like to see my heros and heroines striving, not meekly suffering. Lion, Witch and Wardrobe bothered me for the same reason. The scene where The Lion submits to The Witch is uncomfortable. The "trick" ending where The Lion and The Witch are contesting who knows the oldest laws only partly ameliorates my discomfort.

(Minor point about the movie: Judas hangs himself less than six hours after he betrays Jesus? How could he reverse his thinking that quickly? If he could reverse his thinking that quickly, he's either a wacko, or his character has the strength of a wet noodle. Either way, why did Jesus select him as a disicple in the first place? Unless... the veil is thin...)

He knew that he would be betrayed, all the desciples had there weak moments, he knew it was Judas, neither did he select wealthy or educated men (why?) Judas knew hyng himself soon afterwards, i don't know if it was six hours or more, can't remember, but you have heard of murder-suicides enough not to be troubled by his remorse and despair after a hineous act. (Historically, he is believed to have been disgruntled because Jesus would not rally the counter-mob and excpell Rome, Judas had seen Jesus in action and knew he could.)

Like you, he couldn't get the sacrafice thing down his throat. (No insult again, we are all Judas in part and at times) Only a few stepped forward to help.

> and his supporters were too indecisive. Instead of watching him suffer, they should have been rounding up a counter-mob.


> live by sword again


> counter mob? that would have a) stopped the necessary sacrafice, b) it is testament to our human weakness, we all run from God in moments of weak faith.

I was thinking more along the line of, take full advantage of the law of the land. Did Jesus specifically tell them not to interfere?

Yes, he said you can';t go where i am going, two said we want to, he told Peter expressly, not only can't you go, you will deny me three times during my ordeal.

The supporters are not Jesus. They don't see through the veil at all. So, why aren't they acting fully human? If they are acting fully human, and Jesus has a dedicated following of people in Jerusalem, why aren't they getting those people into Pilot's courtyard so that Barabus(sp) goes to the cross instead of Jesus?

got to go to Mass more on this later

> wrong., he actually didn't complete the march, did he?

He got a lot further than he should have. Oh... that's one point I couldn't figure out without sub-titles. Who was helping him, and what was he saying?



> I also found the mood swings between the Last Supper and the praying and the incarceration disconcerting -- unless he learned something new during those last prayers.


> what mood swing you mean the difference between, guys I am gonna die and holy s--- this hurts?

Yeah. He was getting real uncomfortable right after supper. I wanted to offer him a Pepto Bismo.

> > Yes, free will lead to sin led to need for redemption. wages of sin death, sinless death atonement


> This linkage is to my mind, an arbitrary choice. What links free will, sin, death and redemption, other than The Trinity saying so?


> logic, actions have consequenses

Linking free will and sin is still an arbitrary linkage in my mind. There are many kinds of actions besides sinful ones. There are many kinds of free will choices at have nothing to do with sin.

> suffering is tougher to explain than death, death is the conclusion of "corruption", once corrupted humans must perish, die.


> a sinless sacrafice is needed to atone for the initial corruption.

If I may paraphrase this story we have...

The Trinity notice that ever since Adam and Eve, human souls are stacking up like cordwood and can't be processed into Heaven. They/it figure out that these souls can't be processed because they are corrupted, and that's also why they are dead. They further figure out that only way to purge that corruption is a sinless sacrifice, and the only one sinless enough to do this sacrifice is Jesus. So, he goes to Earth, acquires a sufficient amount of suffering (remains sinless while he's doing this), then lets his mortal part die as the sacrifice, and now human souls can come to life again, and be processed into Heaven.

A question comes to mind as I write this. How can Jesus be truly human and truly sinless at the same time?


The parts Roger has written are in italics. The parts Toby has written are in normal text.

01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36