Date sent: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 09:09:03 -0700 (PDT)

The parts Roger has written are in italics. The parts Toby has written are in normal text.

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Toby: >>> Q? is man basically good or evil in conflict or tabula rasa?

Roger: >> The good-evil axis is an external perspective on a person's actions. Very few people wake up in the morning, yawn, stretch, and think, "Ah... what a great day to do evil!"

> Hitler did, Stalin did, Sadam & sons do, and other terrorists. These guys don't think they are good. They label US the Satan as propoganda, they don't believe it.

No, they didn't. They did not think they were doing evil. I think that in their own minds, they think were heroes. Hitler, in his eyes, was supporting family values by restoring economic vigor and combatting Skeeming Jews and Godless Communists.

arguendo, Hitler believed his own propoganda, though there is no evidence to support that. What about his cabinet who over and again said tell a big enough lie often enough and people will believe it? Surely they were evil, tracking scientific lies and sociopatholgies every day.

Stalin was helping Russia overcome economic backwardness, and internal and external threats to the country. This is what these people said they were doing, and, as I've grown older, I can now believe that this is what they felt they were doing. Thinking of them as doing evil means thinking of their actions from some other perspective than the person's internal perspective.

Uncle Joe, as you grow older you sound like the undisputable communist sympathizers who advised FDR -- the fact checking shows that the economic success of Russia was blunted by the Red Revolution and Tsar's idiotic everything; that Soviet Russia between the wars enaged in collectivization which cost literally millions of lives -- deliberately and cruelly -- and reduced farm production disasterously. He did move and build the plants which made Russia industrialzed, but that effort was more brutal because of the collectivization disaster which gave most human life less value as a chicken or a horse -- the latter two having more value to the state than the man/family that wanted to keep to work their farm. This good man was so obsessed with equality, that he made untrained persons perform surgery and doctors use shovels... the patients were richly rewarded by this "ALTRUISM" roger, the guy was bad, bad, bad.

To put this question of what a leader is thinking into perspective...

o Did Truman think he was doing evil when he ordered the atom bombs dropped?

he though he was, and he was ending the Jap killing machine.

o Did Roosevelt think he was doing evil when he set up concentration camps for Japanese-Americans?

He knew this was wrong, but is this the equivalent in your mind to nazi, ussr, irag concentration camps?

so was permitting slavery in constitution, a big mistake, we are still paying for, and they said it might be and encouraged their successors to fix it fast.

I see no such corollaries in jap, germ ussr iraq.

o Did Eisenhower think he was doing evil when he planned and executed D-Day?

certainly not, there is no moral ambiguity here at all.

o Did Bush think he was doing evil when he sent people to be held without legal rights in Guantanimo?

What's with gitmo? you a suscriber to the Nation? do you think they are accused criminals or accused combatants, does it matter to you?

In sum, what I'm asking is, Do you really think leaders come in two catagories: Those who "think evil" and those who "think good"?

I don't. I think there is less hypocracy in leaders than is commonly assumed, but I think there's more self-delusionment.

Please, if you hear what they say, and see what they write they do know they hypocrits, the questions is do they give into evil, yes we all do. or do they embrace evil. do you see this distinction?

>> More common is the thought, "Hmmm good day for making omlets. I'm going to have to break some eggs!" So, from my point of view, the good-evil axis is a purely human invention.

> So you don't think evil exists? Stalin, Saddam just regular guys thinking about breakfast? How did they get from there to mass murder?

Breakfast is simply a reference to the proverb, "If you're going to make an omlete, you're going to have to break some eggs."

I know, but you think Stalin and such are pretty much like Bush?

> He was the son of God. He wasn't sent to teach apathy or purpose without emotion, he wasn't Spock, it is, after all , called the Passion (the root word and purpose was sacrafice, not stoicism, that is a human device.)

Interesting... so you feel showing emotion was an important part of The Passion? This adds to my knowlege. I would not have predicted showing emotion as being an important part. My prediction would have been that as long as the act was being done, being stoic about it would have been just fine.

well since the action was voluntary I guess he picked how to do it; the sad thing is the sacrafice, was in part for you but it failed in that part. This is an effort for you to see the passion as a personal act of an "engaged, loving" God not an effort to evangelize you. Arguendo, if there is a good-God and a caring-God how would he show these attributes?

Teaching emotions is part of Jesus' mission... interesting, very interesting.

Teaching love (remember god is love) encompasses emotions? It's not like he is teaching emotion for emotion's sake.

> RE: A&E why couldn't they be human before the fall?

> re: JC knowledge is not sin.

Without knowlege, they are proto-human, not human. Without knowlege, they aren't even children.

How so? which knowledge is uniquely human? if they (and we) are animals, as you believe what's so important about knowledge of good and evil?

Hmm... I think we need a defintion of sin, here. For Adam and Eve, Sin was disobeying God, right?

How about lower case sin, and sin for the rest of us? Does "doing evil" describe Sin completely? Is there a defintion of sin that isn't based on the Good-Evil axis?

Sin is disobeying God. Turning away, saying, "Don't love me, I don't love you." the prodigal son, the greedy, Cain, etc. (try the ten commandments)

The parts Roger has written are in italics. The parts Toby has written are in normal text.

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