Date sent: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 07:47:55 -0800 (PST)

The parts Roger has written are in italics. The parts Toby has written are in normal text.

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Roger:

Just to confirm on point one: The Gospels are not inspired writing if Jesus did not suffer and die for humanity.

On point two: The question of Jesus' sanity may be fully discounted in some circles, but in this context it's a valid question. The reason it's a valid question has to do with what weight to put on Jesus' words and actions. If God the Father is hidden from him during his earthly existence, then his words and actions are only as inspired as those of other mortals who claim do be doing God's work. Again, I use John the Baptist as an example of a mortal who gets a "calling" from God, but not a full revelation.

If God the Father is hidden from him during his mortal existence, then his actions on earth only become divine actions after the resurrection occurs. Until he is resurrected, he's just another human prophet in a long line of prophets who have come, heard God talking to them, preached, and died. Because of the veil, his actions are, by definition, human actions. But, if a human is going to act as if he or she is immortal, and that person doesn't know for sure that they are immortal (because of the veil), then they are, by definition, acting in a crazy manner.

So, either Jesus had a "thin" veil while he was living on earth and knew he was immortal, or he had a "thick" veil while he was on earth, and didn't know for sure he was an immortal. In the latter case he was acting insanely when he believed he was Son of God.

This is what I mean when I say, "You can't have it both ways." Either he faces the cross knowing by previous experience that he is immortal and that a large part of him is going to pass through death and come out the other side, or he faces the cross as a delusional human who believes in his heart that he will be saved by God in some fashion. In the latter case he is no different from hundreds of other delusional humans who have believed in their hearts that they would be resurrected. (the suiciders of a few years ago who thought they were dieing to hitch a ride on a passing comet come to mind as an example of some other people who knew in their hearts that they would be resurrected.)

The follow on question is: Why should Christians take Jesus' mortal phase actions any more seriously than the actions of those hundreds of other humans who have believed in their hearts they were immortal?

If the veil is thick, it is only after the resurrection actually happens that Jesus has any more insight into God than any other prophet has had, so why are his pre-resurrection actions considered special?

If the veil is thin, his pre-resurrection actions can be considered special, but he goes into The Passion with certain knowlege of his immortality, and The Passion is simply a painful right of passage for his immortal aspect; there is no death and resurrection for the immortal part.

On the question of "Would I take on that suffering?...": I didn't answer because the question is irrelevant to me. I don't envision myself, or my suffering, as a gatekeeper for anything.

Question for you: Why does sin require a price? To put it another way: Why don't other human activities/emotions require prices?

--Roger

Toby:

pt 1: right conclusion, not sure you know why though.

pt 2: Jesus knew he was son of God, said so and said he would rise. true, his veil was thinner than John, Paul and even Ringo and me. But many have had more inspired lives and writing than others -- it's not a binary world.

sane or insane? this is really flat earth stuff, men die hoping to save [themselves] but knowing they will save their family, fellow soldiers, or mankind. doesn't make them nuts. (Makes them noble really, if the cause is just, and saving your children or wife is usually noble.)

If Jesus knew he would come back to life he is no different than me; I expect to be resurrected so did JC.

Even though His faith was greater than mine what makes you think it didn't hurt a-l-o-t; (Actually I question the sincerety of this line of questions since since you say that you would can't envision suffering for anything/one)

Before addressing the need, let me ask you this: Assuming the need for suffering and death and Jesus' foreknowledge of his resurrection, do you want JC to suffer for, one hundred years? a thou? when is enough to satisfy you that God loves you?

Then we can get to whether there was a need, unless of course it's a sliding scale

12 hours if he knew this much

12 decades if he knew a little more

12 centuries if...

--Toby

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The parts Roger has written are in italics. The parts Toby has written are in normal text.

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