Date sent: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 10:36:42 -0700 (PDT)

The parts Roger has written are in italics. The parts Toby has written are in normal text. 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36

Roger: He got a lot further than he should have. Oh... that's one point I couldn't figure out without sub-titles. Who was helping him,and what was he saying?

Toby: Simon of Cyrene, he was saying what you are saying, fella's he's not gonna make it and if you keep hitting him i will stop helping.

He was forced to help, true what he actaully said artistic license, Jesus fell three times that (historically) were noted.

What would it have meant for Jesus not to die? There would be no redemption in a decree, (that's liberalism in the current nonsense version... saying you are sorry without redemptive acts is enough; then you are left only with human proscriptive (malum prohibitum) law, and no use or value to moral or natural law (malum in se). There is no mercy cause there is no contrition. Without contrition and mercy, there is no Justice.

Linking free will and sin is still an arbitrary linkage in my mind. There are many kinds of actions besides sinful ones. There are many kinds of free will choices at have nothing to do with sin.

yeah? we are not concerned with the non-sin acts, or the price of rice. They neither deny the existence of sinful acts nor require sacrafice (Jesus said, "I didn't come to heal the healthy, or deal with the things of Ceasar.)

If I may paraphrase this story we have...

The Trinity notice that ever since Adam and Eve, human souls are stacking up like cordwood and can't be processed into Heaven.

They notice that A & E choose to disobey God.*

They/it figure out that these souls can't be processed because they are corrupted, and that's also why they are dead. They further figure out that only way to purge that corruption is a sinless sacrifice, and the only one sinless enough to do this sacrifice is Jesus.

I dont think God had to ponder this matter; he knew once free will was used for sin a sacrafice had to be made for any to be redeemed.

So, he goes to Earth, acquires a sufficient amount of suffering (remains sinless while he's doing this), then lets his mortal part die as the sacrifice, and now human souls can come to life again, and be processed into Heaven.

Not quite, his human body is resurrected, heaven is physical. Yes after the sacrafice, humans have a gate to heaven. (of course, JC was and is sinless, remember alpha omega)

A question comes to mind as I write this. How can Jesus be truly human and truly sinless at the same time?

Adam and Eve were truly sinless as humans, chose to give up sinlessness for the promise to be small g gods. Satan told them they would be like god if they ate the apple. They actually thought and behaved pretty much as your philosophy suggests... "God is an inscrutable, small g kind of guy, why obey any law that doesn't seem necessary to us. Eating the apple will give u knowledge of good and evil, more knowledge, that's good. Disobey God, "

"We see no immediate harm, we will chance it. If He had a good reason, he would have told us more so we could parry the devil's invitation."

This may not be what you think, but it seems to be how the thinking goes that is spurring your current line of inquiry, is this arguendo or is these sincere questions on your part?

That is -- what do you really think about God, life-after-death?

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