Date sent: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 08:36:18 -0700 (PDT)

The parts Roger has written are in italics. The parts Toby has written are in normal text.

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Toby: > I think we agree, but it troubles me that you have no philosophy that you can articulate. you seem totally in process -- pascal's trap of distraction away from ultimate issues.

Roger: I'm afraid that will have to continue to trouble you.

>From my point of view trying to know something about what is beyond the knowable universe is just speculating. What I have speculated about causes, because I like the results, is what I've talked about with you already. It is minimalist and materialist.

Fair enough, but have you (and as there are people who don't like spinach there are people who just don't care about ultimate issues) read and considered the big A or the big ST A?

and as a corrollary, how do you derive your standards of conduct? they seem though out, but are you attempting virtue or going minute by minute?

The advantages of being "totally in the process" are two fold: one is, as I've pointed out, I am decider of my choosing, and the other is that it is easy for me to change points of view so I can better understand other frames of reference.

True, and God, and salvation, by the way, is a process not static -- the Moody people though they do a lot of "God's work" and are as, or more, moral than most, lack any commitment to becoming better. They do so for the most part, but always in steadfast denial that life is preparatory. This is a side-bar that should help you know more about prots v cath's -- always a greaat debate since they mean well, like utopians but lack intellectual honesty. Something you do NOT lack which makes our discussions sometimes timultuous, but never a dead end.

Finally, for me predictive value is very important, and this is why being able to change frames of reference is so satistying. When I can change my frame of reference, I find my ability to predict goes way up. This is particulary true now that I have enough wisdom to deal with how humans and human organizations will act.

no doubt, I am deeply troubled by the conduct of the church, distressed at the lack of leadership from this Pope, though his teachings are excellent and thougtful, I have to count him responsible, given his long tenure, for allowing alot of divisive persons into high positions and for not bringing the US Bishops under tow.

Glad to discuss that with you, along with port v cath stuff, therein, I can speak with authority since i have taken the time to review the facts -- I have not relied upon rumor and "i think..." from "cultural cath" or i read only the bible christians.

 

Date sent: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 17:11:17 -0700 (PDT)

Toby: > Fair enough... but have you read and considered the big A or the big ST A?

Roger: Not familiar with these initials.

aristotle thomas aquinas

> and as a corrollary, how do you derive your standards of conduct? they seem thought out, but are you attempting virtue or going minute by minute?

I use the Judeo-Christian concepts I learned growing up as a base. As early as middle school/high school time frame, I recognized that while the foundation was filled with contradictions,

just out of curiosity -- contradictions?

the edifice is a comprehensive system for a code of conduct, and a fairly well working system that I was familiar with, so I started with them.

In the mid-eighties I started adding the Prisoner's Dilemma framework to my thinking, and it has helped guide my code of conduct in recent years. It revealed to me that I'm partial to highly cooperative environments (which is why I'm partial to start-up company environments and Korea), and that I don't like protecting myself from defectors. I do it, but the less time and attention I have to spend on doing it, the better. (This is why I get so bugged by airline security.)

More than most people, I control my conduct by controlling my environment. I know I'll lose if I try to fight my environment for a long time, so I pick where I live and work carefully. That had a lot to do with why I ended up in Utah, and not California, Ohio or some other part of the US. Californians are too "hysterical", Ohioians too cold and ugly, Kentuckians too redneck... the Utahns I met while I was stationed in Utah were friendly, practical and cooperative.

> The Moody people...

Haven't run into them since that Expo, so only the impressions they left at the Expo remain in my memories.

> I am deeply troubled by the conduct of the church...

Sounds interesting. I'll be mostly a listener because I haven't followed Catholic current events that closely. I've seen the scandals that the media picks up on, that's it.

> Glad to discuss that with you, along with port v cath stuff...

Also of interest. I have followed the history of this, but mostly from the framework of how it affected politics and diplomacy. Not from the frame of how it affected thinking within the church organizations.

I will be a bit slow on responding. We've covered a lot of ground, and I need to digest what has been covered, and get out a couple essays from it. I'll show you what I come up with.

we did cover alot, a cool drink from a fire hydrant

 

The parts Roger has written are in italics. The parts Toby has written are in normal text.

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